Some Stuff on a Couple of Marian Dogmas

So Austin and I had another big huge honkin' conversation with Austin last night. We've basically agreed that it's post-worthy. I should warn, it's long, but lots of its lines aren't full so it'll probably read faster than it seems. It's worth noting that Austin and I have been talking theology for a long time, so we don't always set our reverence-filters to max, even when we're talking about Marian dogmas.

Dan: ok

TBH i'm not the best person to ask about immaculate conception and perpetual virginity

Austin: yeah

i do understand that

Dan: the two doctrines you seem mainly to take issue with, if i'm reading you right

Austin: well now

Dan: we've talked about theotokos

Austin: immaculate conception.... i forgot what that specifically means

please re-define it

Dan: it means being born w/o original sin

Austin: oh, Christ being born w/o?

Dan: nope

that's a Marian one

obviously it also applies to Christ, but that's because he's God and is like us in all things except sin

Austin: so the idea is that mary was immaculate?

Dan: i dunno

i think the main idea is

immaculate vessel for the Son of God

Austin: ah

i thought that the sin was through adam's descendants

Dan: in vulgar terms, since her belly is the holy of holies...

and i was applying that one to Immaculate Conception...but basically, since she's carrying the son of God, the basic rationale is that she should also be without sin, OSLT. there might also be something there in terms of how Jesus received a human nature

i've no idea if that made any sense at all

Austin: i am thinking about it a bit

it just seems like the concept of an immaculate mary is not something that is based on any scripture but is a theological construct based on the necessity for it, because of the way that the theology was made in the first place

Dan: what, what with the Trinity and the Incarnation, etc.?

Austin: no, i mean those make sense

they are theological constructs out of necessity because we see them in the scripture

Dan: okay

Austin: but i don't necessarily see why God cannot be conceived in a sinful womb

especially with the HS at work

Dan: hmm

hmm

Austin: i mean, if there was a principle that led me to believe that

i could understand how (implicitly) immaculate conception could be constructed

Dan: ok

so what if it were an implication of a scriptural construct like the incarnation?

it seems then that it would be necessary

Austin: yes, indeed

iwould definitely agree with it then.

Dan: yeah

btw, when i was talking about references of Scripture

in the mass

i was including the many implicit references

in addition to the explicit ones, like "Lord, I know am not worthy to receive you, etc."

Austin: ah yes

you know, i really don't have much problem with the mass structure or the things they say even

or the prayers

it's just the theological stuff about mary

like, that SERIOUSLY trips me up

Dan: what about the declarations on free will?

Austin: free will (even with my strong views on it) is still something i'm willing to debate and consider

but i really am not open to the idea of mary being a pure human being

Dan: what's your objection?

like, how does it contradict the Scripture?

(btw, I'm playing dumb a little: I do have my own objections along those lines)

Austin: it mildly contradicts but i would argue that something so foundational should be more based on scripture

(aye, don't worry about it)

there is little mention of Mary outside of the gospels

Dan: this is true

Austin: i can't think of any epistle references to her off-hand

and none of them mention the idea that she was sinless, though the majority of the epistles talk about Christ as being pure and sinless

i just sorta think that if they were writing it, they might throw in a shout-out to Mary, you know

Dan: ...heh

Austin: something like "Jesus, He was pure and sinless, just like His mom"

:\

Dan: maybe

the thing that i'm working on is this greek word that people won't agree on

it's in luke 1:28

the Catholics are the only ones who translate it as "full of grace" but they, or at least their websites, disagree with CARM about what the word is in the greek

and I myself couldn't say b/c from CARM's site it might just be a different way to spell said greek word in english

Austin: which word?

Dan: that's part of the problem i'm not sure

Austin: ah

being from a reformed church

i am inevitably in much agreement with CARM.ORG [Note: The relevant article on that site is “Mary, full of grace, and Luke 1:28. – KK]

Dan: carm's anglicization: kexaritomena

Austin: so it's not a great place for me to check things out

Dan: catholic answers's: kecharitomene [Relevant article on catholic.com: “How to Defend the Immaculate Conception,” probably anything with that title, but Jason Evert if there's more than one. - KK]

you see my problem?

those look JUST similar enough that the people might be seeing the same greek word and writing it different

now it IS quite clear that they're translating it differently

Austin: yeah

Dan: but one or both might be mixed up about what the word actually IS

and that's a problem

Austin: OH

found the word

hang on let me get this copied for you

Dan: link?

yes

Austin: http://gknt.org/cgi-bin/gnt?id=0301 [Note: This link will be important later. - KK.]

scroll down to 28

it's near the halfway point

after a comma

Dan: yeah, that's a bigass greek word

Austin: yes it is sir

i was thinking the exact same thing

Dan: i wonder if, in some comic awesomeness, the apologists are breaking the word down at different places resulting in different roots/conclusions?

Austin: interesting thought

however i wonder what the difference between the latin and this version is

i think that's more to do with it

Dan: well yes, SORT of.

the latin version translates a lot more explicitly as 'full of grace'

the problem with the CARM argument is that it relies on the latin being the source of the confusion without considering the possibility that maybe the latin translation was keeping in mind marian language that had already become part of the church

in which case the early church, if CARM is right, must have been awfully set on contrabiblical teaching

Austin: indeed

when did the marian doctrine emerge, exactly?

in reference to the latin vulgate

Dan: ...well the nature of emergence requires me not to give an exact date

however, w/r/t latin vulgate, at least two dogmas can be seen earlier than the vulgate

these being, IIRC, perpetual virginity and immaculate conception

Austin: i see

Dan: (there's also one that's still got a chance of being dogmatized, but it only shows up in anywhere near full force in st irenaeus among the fathers, IIRC)

Austin: so it is a possibility that the translation was influenced through these dogmas

Dan: yes

but that would also imply that these dogmas were commonly held in the early church

Austin: perpetual virginity really doesn't make sense to me either :\

she got married to a dude and didn't ever sleep with him

Dan: which presents a problem for CARM guys, if they care about being the historical Christian church

is this not possible?

actually, the best argument i've heard for perpetual virginity

Austin: this is VERY possibly

*possible

i've heard it happens a lot in modern marriages

:D

Dan: heh

Austin: i'm just saying that i don't understand why it's held as a dogma

is there some virtue in not having sex?

Dan: there might be

you'd have to ask someone more awesome than i about that

Austin: ah bummer

i must have been mistaken

i thought i was talking to the most awesome one :(

Dan: sorry

Mary's basic question "How can this be if I'm a virgin", doesn't necessarily make sense if we assume virgin simply means "unsexed one"

i mean

i'm sure she was well aware of human biology

so on some level, if she had vowed some sort of virginity, it makes a little more sense

Austin: wait, so you mean that

Dan: i'm not totally convinced by the argument, but it struck me better than most

Austin: it doesn't make sense for her to say, "how can this be, since i've never had sex?" but it DOES make sense for her to say, "how can this be, since I vowed never to have sex?"

Dan: yes, kind of

actually, yeah, that is pretty much the arg

Austin: i do not wish to be unkind

Dan: say it

Austin: that argument [fails very badly]

Dan: not as hard as you think

Austin: well

maybe i'm missing something

but how is vowing not to have sex any different than not having sex

Dan: ...it's not any different

let's take the first part:

''it doesn't make sense for her to say, "how can this be, since i've never had sex?" '

of course that doesn't make sense

Austin: well first

what is she responding to

what exactly does the angel say here

Dan: and that's the issue

okay

on my rereading of luke the argument DOES fly

and the perpetual virginity IS supported

the angel doesn't say HOW she'll conceive

Austin: ok. lay it on me brotha

Dan: UNTIL she mentions her virginity

let's go with assumption A: when Mary said 'virgin' she meant she'd never had sex

under this context

the angel tells her she's going to conceive

that she's GOING to

not that she has

Austin: aye

Dan: he doesn't even give a time frame

and her response is "how can this be if i've never had sex"

even though she is currently bethrothed

Austin: so he says, "in the future you will conceive a child"... i see what you're saying

Dan: BUT

if 'virgin' implies 'i'm not planning on having sex ever'

then it seems more sensible to say 'but angel dude, how can i have a baby without having sex?'

Austin: yeah

dude

all i'm thinking is

Dan: which of course if she were planning on having relations with joseph, would be silly

Austin: joseph signed up for the WRONG marriage here

if mary was a super hot chick

Dan: HEH

Austin: he would totally not dig that

Dan: possibly not

but if an angel came and told YOU to dig it

you might reconsider

Austin: yeah maybe

you have a point

Dan: it is also not impossible for Catholics to believe that Joseph was actually a widower; in fact it's fairly common belief in the tradition

not defined, but common

i hope the argument makes more sense to you NOW though

i thought it was in trouble for a second myself, then i read the angel's initial anunciation more carefully

it also makes more sense to me now why Calvin and Luther held to perp. virginity: they knew their exegesis

Austin: pretty much all the translations here are future tense

so there's a good indication that the greek is future tense

aye. well perpetual virginity could make sense, then. now i understand why it is a plausible dogma

Dan: dangit xeirx, now i convinced MYself basically

even if i didn't convince you

Austin: wait

convinced yourself of perpetual virginity?

honestly dude, don't try it

it's too hard

Dan: ?

hello

Austin: mary's a champ

for sticking with it

Dan: we're already part of a religion that believes in the RESURRECTION

oh

HEH

i thought you were talking about the doctrine

Austin: :D

i know :)

Dan: no, i only intend on that if i discern that i'm not getting married

but i've also discerned that i'm not ever joining the priesthood unless God has a really evil sense of humor

bonus: Catholic answers' analysis of the bigass greek word agrees with the site you sent

Austin: nice

my video card pulled another overheating trick

Dan: insofar as they gave their analysis of the verb as a verb

Austin: so now i am in the cold kitchen :(

Dan: i am sorry :/

Austin: hey, so far this has been a good discussion but i'm really tired

Dan: ok

Austin: and i need to get out of the house as soon as i can tomorrow

because my sister's friend is coming over and she has a wicked crush on me

Dan: i shall ttyl

Austin: i just don't wanna deal with that crap

Dan: HEH

ok

have a good day

and good luck avoiding women as you often have to do

we shall discuss this more later

Austin: can you put our conversation on keyboardtheologians?

Dan: yeah!

actually

i will!

Austin: sweet!

Dan: unless you want the honors

Austin: well as long as you give me credit for a post i don't care who does it

Dan: ok

Austin: it's nice to collaborate and talk about stuff

Dan: yeah

Austin: if this were a work night i would be screwed

Dan: hehe yeah

Austin: no more work nights until i get a job again!

:D

Dan: we might be able to talk more tomorrow though, depending when i'm home

Austin: okay, cool

Dan: have a good one though

Austin: i'll keep my eyes open

you have a good one too, and Gby

Dan: Gby2

Austin: 'night

Anyway, as always, anyone who has further thoughts on the stuff we talked about is welcome to provide them.